The Duggars and Molestation
I haven’t seen all of the video of the Duggars speaking out on Fox News with Megan Kelly. I haven’t even followed this story, but reading about it this morning due to the requests of readers, I am totally flagged by the story being told.
The Duggars are saying that Josh came to them and admitted he was touching his younger siblings at night.
What?
Does that even sound plausible?
The concept that Josh knew his behavior was wrong and decided to tell his parents does not seem realistic to me. Most teenagers who engage in any sexual behavior don’t go and confess it to their parents. IF they realize it is wrong, they would simply stop and hope the discussion never comes up.
I do not believe we are getting the truth here at all.
I am further concerned that Jill is saying that the girls didn’t even know they were touched or that it was inappropriate, and yet Jim Bob says, “This was like touching somebody over their clothes. There were a couple instances where he touched them under their clothes.”
So the girls didn’t know they were touched under their clothes?
Please.
And a babysitter was also affected, but you notice there is no talk of that at all.
I don’t believe Josh came forward and that his parents were just good citizens and turned him into police and got counseling. I believe there is a lot more to this story, and I feel for the Duggar children who are being shown that honesty is not the best policy.
Don’t get me wrong, I feel for any parent who has to deal with a challenging situation like this, but please parents, if you are going to talk, which you do not have to do, tell the truth or don’t speak at all. You are setting a horrible example for your children.
I’m also flagged by the parents being so concerned with appearing as failures and concern about Josh when there are victims that should be put first. A lot being brushed under the rug here and the public senses it. The daughters who are speaking out also seem to be trying to minimize which must really be devastating for their healing process.
I can certainly understand the desire to minimize it– if you can do that, it can ease your suffering to some extent, because then you blunt the trauma by normalizing the experience. But they need to understand that that will only work for so long. Eventually– and you never know when– it’s going to come back like a freight train and they’re sure going to need help dealing with it then! Those poor girls, they likely don’t even know what’s coming yet. 🙁
You are right on this, Keith. Around 25 yrs of age is when people, totally, begin to face what has been done to them. They are already facing this public humiliation and that in it’s self is horrible. The public turning on their family is another terrible blow. All of this will never completely go away. I am very concerned for the girls.
I had heard that one of the molested females told first, wasn’t believed, then when another complained they had to speak with the boy and that’s when he confessed. Of course there is a lot of stories and a lot of rumor, but that usually happens when a mom and dad protect a child molester in their midst. And what of the girls? Oh, they should just forgive and move on…….like this only affected the parents and the one boy. ugh. disgusting.
If it were anyone else, CPS would have taken every single underaged kid right out of their house until a full investigation was done…they failed to protect their little girls, they succeeded in protecting a criminal from getting punished by working really hard to keep it quiet til the statue of limitations ran out.
They aren’t helping their son by doing this either — minimizing it. They aren’t helping anyone! They need to deal with it directly and they don’t have to go public with it, for Pete’s sake. It’s a private matter, so address it minimally, if you feel you need to, be honest and brief and leave it be. Instead they are making it worse for everyone. Very sad.
Thank you for discussing this!
Something to factor in here is that (In Touch, like em or not has the documentation) their first step was to fly to a crisis PR firm. This is about an attempt to keep the $ rolling on in.
Considering their entire lifestyle is based on maintaining appearances, control, & the “holier than thou” that was characteristic of Pharisees, I’m not surprised. I know families far less strict than the Duggars that would’ve done the exact same thing, just for those reasons—even for something as basic as “Your daughter is has contact dermatitis that’s triggered by hot water and soap,” since daughters are live-in dishwashers even if it damages them.
I do not beleive Josh confessed, I think he was caught. And I am fed up with hearing people excuse it as he was a child. At 15 and half you are able to get a license and start driving a car. You are in high school (although this family home schooled their kids) and many kids this age are dating and able to go out alone with friends as this is a mature age.
So no, he knew what he was doing. This was not a 7 year old being curious with other kids his age. Also most of the victims were asleep. I had a boyfriend friend at 15 and we touched each other. We were old enough. It was mutual not one doing to the other while they were asleep.
And the said the spike to LE, well that officer is in jail for child pornorgraphy. When you consider this was a “close personal family friend” I often wonder if that man had maybe done something to Josh.
And mom and dad are judgemental and put their religion out there and talk about living live by gods standards. When you do that but have skeletons it is going to be highlighted even more.
We do not know the truth and my guess is that it’s much worse than we know about.
Totally agree! And when the parents were asked if their son was a pedophile, they said, “A pedophile is an adult preying on children. This was a child preying on children.” As if that makes it okay in the slightest. It’s absolutely disgusting the way this family has completely minimized their sons actions. They even have the girls who were molested (a word I notice they never used) coming to his defense. This is sick.
He made the distinction that he wasn’t a pedophile. Because the legal definition of a pedophile is someone 16 or younger.
Amazing that was the only thing he could really use to defend this.
For people who bash gay and transgendered for their own personal preferences that hurt no one, they deserve to have to explain.
If you are going to judge you better dam well not have skeletons. This is worse than skeltons.
And I beleive 100% that this is only the tip of the iceberg. He could be Like Bill Cosby. We could see more victims came out. Even if they elect not too, I believe there are more.
I totally agree. What I’m dreading is some revelation of where Josh learned this behavior. I know this can be spontaneous, but offenders often start as victims themselves. I think the Duggars would be smart to let this story die as opposed to doing interviews to put it right back in the news.
What I’ll say personally, is certain members of that family have always given me the creeps, and Josh wasn’t first on the list.
God help those girls.
Wow. He says he isn’t a pedophile because he was under 16 years old…riiiiight…because THAT’S how sexual perversion works. (Sarcasm)
I think you’re probably spot on when you say this is the tip of the iceberg. From the way everyone in his family has completely minimized what Josh did, I would say there is a LOT that has been kept under wraps.
Josh is misinformed as to what the definition of a pedophile is.
Former FBI profiler, Roy Hazelwood, in his book DARK DREAMS, page 105 (paperback) explains:
“Pedophile and child molester often are used interchangeably, but they are quite different. Pedophile, in psychiatric usage, describes an individual who is preferentially attracted sexually to a prepubescent child (generally thirteen years of age or less). However, a pedophile does not become criminal until he molests a child. It is entirely possible for a pedophile to act out his sexual preferences only in his mind or with a consenting adult or paid partner who plays the role of a child. That is not criminal behavior.”
From the self admitted activity that occurred when Josh was 15 and a half years of age, Josh is clearly a pedophile, and a criminal.
I would be concerned for Josh Duggar’s OWN children.
No one can know if Josh is a pedophile or not. Not all people who molest children are pedophiles, which as your own quote says is “an individual who is preferentially attracted sexually to a prepubescent child”. Some people molest children because they are children themselves, or because they have easy access to children or because they know they can get children to not tell. None of those people are pedophiles if they actually prefer adults.Josh was a child molester. It’s possible he still might be. It’s also possible he’s a pedophile. However, it’s just as likely that he isn’t a pedophile and was an opportunistic molester.
I do think someone should be checking on him and his kids because sexual predators are at high risk of re-offending, even with treatment.
I work with at-risk children and kids under 16 who prey on other kids are NOT considered pedophiles. Legally, they’re not called pedophiles because the sexual abuse is perpetrated on other children when they themselves are children. Kids who molest have “alerts” in their files about their sexual predation but are not classified as pedophiles. It’s interesting that the Duggars have been careful to say no abuse happened after Josh turned 16.
Josh has some definite problems and what he did shouldn’t be considered normal sexual exploration as the Duggars maintain. Something went wrong in his life somewhere.
The Duggars don’t seem open and truthful at all and it’s gross that they’ve made the daughters speak while protecting the perpetrator from the press.
Laws differ from state to state. It’s my understanding that some states have laws on the books that child molestation by another child is a crime. People are hung up on the word pedophile, but what Josh did, child molestation, in my book, no matter what his age, is a crime, because Josh could be charged as an adult for this crime.
At least they admitted he was ‘preying.’ He may not be a pedophile, but he absolutely is someone who thinks that female bodies are the property of men. He doesn’t believe his ‘sin’ is in their lack of consent, but rather in his lust. He thinks it’s all about him because his religion teaches him that. His parents are making it all about him too.
I took the close personal family friend thing as the police officer was one of their church members.
Way too much saccharine coming from Mom for me to be comfortable.
Absolutely concur. You know my theory on that! I’ve felt that way from day with her.
sorry – what is your theory on that? I would love to know.
I only saw a small bit of this interview but got flagged by the mom more than JB. There’s something weird going on there.
I read an article written by someone who used to belong to this ‘religion’ (cult) and it was seriously disturbing.
Could you provide a link to the story Desiree, or some search words that might bring it up? Thank you.
http://www.salon.com/2015/05/28/i_couldve_been_a_duggar_wife_i_grew_up_in_the_same_church_and_the_abuse_scandal_doesnt_shock_me/
Here it is…pretty run-of-the-mill cult stuff
I found one story where the Duggars supposedly said they were “Independent Baptists.”
At this link: http://www.bustle.com/articles/30164-what-religion-are-the-duggars-from-tlcs-19-kids-counting-its-pretty-exclusive
They have always stated such on the show. That’s just a Christian denomination (is that the right word, I’m not religuous)
Thanks Jane.
They do say that group is cult like. It’s about control
But their teenage and ADULT children WHEN dating can not even be alone. Can’t not even hold hands.
The girls can’t even wear bathing suits and swim in shorts and long skirts.
Because their father owns them and their virginity is his prized possession until he publicly and with lots of giggling nudge, nudge, wink, winking gives it away to another man who now owns her. And the fawning American public says, ¨Look at these good Christian girls! Why can’t more women be modest and chaste and devout like these pretty girls?!¨ It nauseates me.
I think you’re confusing Christianity with Islam. Christianity doesn’t teach that a women’s chastity is equated with the honor of the men in her life, that’s a view held by much of the Islamic world. In Christianity a woman’s chastity is her own honor.
A woman’s honor is in her integrity as a human being, not what is or isn’t between her legs. I find your argument unconvincing. You seem to be suggesting that your evaluation of Christianity makes it superior to Islam, but if “a woman’s chastity” is even part of the conversation, then they’re all the same to me. Patriarchal relics of a dying world view.
That’s not how it’s treated in certain circles. Personal experience.
I have wondered if it wasn’t Grandma Dugger.
There’s a blogger that has pretty much made it her mission to reveal her experience of happenings during her time growing up within the religion.
In essence, it’s that when someone is unconvincingly way too nice/kind/sweet/deferential/etc., it’s usually because that person is working very hard to hide what’s behind the mask. There are genuinely nice/kind/sweet/deferential/etc. people in the world, but they’re few and far between– and when you do encounter them, they tend to feel really authentic with it. Most people come across as almost condescending or totally fake about it because it’s not real, it’s just a cultivated image being presented for whatever specific reason.
I don’t know how to explain it adequately though because I’m not sure it’s something that everyone can see or pick up on. I think most people can tell the difference if you point out an example of each side by side, but to recognize it on their own without the contrast, I don’t know if most people can actually do that.
Think of something like a stereotypical sweet, proper southern lady who says something to someone where the words she says are genteel and soft, but she’s actually being haughty and those words really convey a very sharp, barbed insult maybe?
It’s almost like it’s the opposite of tact, in that tact is all about preserving the recipient of the message, while this is all about preserving the originator of the message while still tearing down the recipient of the message. The sweetness is just a veil to conceal the reality.
Like the sweet southern lady that says” Bless your Heart”. That’s not really what she is saying.
One of my favorite examples Lynne!
thanks for the eplanation keith
Keith, that was an excellent explanation.
I agree with that “mask” thing. I’ve recently encountered a family where the parents essentially tried to trigger any codependence I might have from my own issues. It struck me as startling and “off” at the time, and their behavior since has seemed outright desperate. Ironically, in doing so, they gave me plenty of fodder to sabotage their reputation if they try to actively block me from helping their kids.
(I’m forthright about my own background. I’m finding it more useful to talk about than to hide. I’ve had many a person have light bulb moments, recognizing abusive and manipulative behaviors they’ve experienced, directly due to what I’ve said. And folks’ responses also say a lot about if they’ve been victim or perpetrator, themselves.)
Also, thanks for that “opposite of tact” comment. I’ve never thought of it that way, and that’s helpful. I have trouble even writing cliffhangers in my fiction or using my copywriting skills for myself, because I can’t help but see the similarities between it and sadistic manipulation. Charting that out should help me (and some other folks I know, in similar boats). 🙂
Me too. Before all this came to light, I watched their show a few times out of morbid curiosity. Michelle’s voice and demeanor is totally for show, and an unconvincing one at that. Think Michael Jackson. It’s uncomfortable to listen to.
For me, the biggest flag came when Michelle said, “they probably didn’t even realize that it was an improper touch.” That was after Jim Bob said that the girls were sleeping when it occurred and didn’t remember it happening in the first place…so which is it? Did they not remember, or did they not realize it was wrong? Also, at first Jim Bob makes it sound like it was a one time thing…that he did this and then felt bad so he confessed (yeah, right)…but then they say that they finally removed him from the home after he messed with his youngest sister (the youngest at the time)…so it obviously wasn’t an isolated incident. Reading the transcript from this interview made my skin crawl. They minimize everything their daughters went through at the hands of their brother and then call out the media and saying that their children are victims of the media! Ummmm…WHAT?!
I’ve read the police reports. It was no one time thing. And it wasn’t always while the girls were sleeping. He put his hands under one girl’s dress in the laundry room, and another while he was reading a story to her. He was doing it repeatedly and getting bolder and bolder about it.
Eyes,
Regarding your dilema with Facebook, I would think 6 Degrees of Separation would come into play, where you must know someone amongst all your contacts who knows someone, who knows someone who knows Mr. Zuckerberg, and you could do an end-run and get your EFL name accepted!!!
On another note, I don’t know if any other readers have difficulty seeing the faint font style of your main comment intro to each story, but I find I have to highlight the text so it’s easier for me to read.
Anyhow, I look forward to your comments on the developing Bill Cosby story trying to keep the 2005? court records sealed … talk about the smoking gun!!! c’mon, baby needs new shoes
You can do it as a “public figure”
6 Degrees of separation; an end run – funny 🙂 That’s being creative.
No problems with the reading myself but now I see, thanks to you, that it is a lighter font, a yellowy grey rather than black so this would make it less distinct.
Some of their story wasn’t plausible, to my way of thinking. I do believe that they did what they thought best to remedy the situation and until I find out more, I don’t think they need to have their show cancelled. They contradict themselves in some ways, such as they totally trust that Josh will never do this again and, then, they go into all of the safe-guards they have put into place to keep this from happening again. Their children aren’t even allowed to play hiding/seek. The parents, I think, are looking at Josh’s change from a Christian perspective, but Christians fail and have problems, too. I would think that this kind of problem would have to be something to watch and be worked through.
Child molestors do not change. They will tell you this themselves.
I think the fact that they claim he confessed and then continued to do this….even more aware this was wrong speaks volumes.
I see this as an inability to stop.
And again, molestors will tell you they have no control.
And they need to stop saying they got him help. Hard work will not change a predator. And a family friend is not a counselor.
This goes deeper and I now wonder if he still has urges of his children are safe.
Once he choose to do this to a 5 year old it greatly changed things in my mind.
I agree with you to a point, but I don’t think a teen has his values set in stone while still in his teens. In a more mature person, I would agree. I just don’t think we can flat out call a teen a child molester.
He is not only a child molester, he is a pedophile. He was not curious over 5 times. He could be called a child molester even though he is a teen, because we don’t know what either formed him to be this way or if his brain is wired this way. He knew something was wrong with him.
Also, because he was given the parent role by his neglectful parents (who have way too many children than two people can take care of and admit they give parenting duties to older siblings), he is more of a parent figure preying on children than a sibling preying on children. His little sisters would have seen him as an authority figure and a caretaker. That makes his behavior even more sinister.
I find it odd that with all the books in the home, that a certain book would be lent out that just happened to have the letter in amongst the pages. It’s almost like the lender wanted this all to come to light.
I have suspected this from day one: that one of the girls sent a cry for help.
The idea that a ‘letter’ about molestation was even written and ‘stored’ in a book, then the letter wasn’t noticed when lending it out—way too fantastical.
I’m sorry. Where did this come from? Is this in the interview also? I haven’t seen the full interview. Thank you.
No, not in the interview. I read it a while back. Try google.
This information is also in the police report.
The detail about the book came out in 2006, when the Duggars were scheduled to do an appearance on Oprah. An anonymous person faxed a letter to the Oprah show, explaining the molestation that happened, and how it came to light. The way it came to light is that a family friend found that letter in the book. And the issue then was taken up within the Duggar’s church, ONLY.
The Oprah show sent that letter directly to CPS or law enforcement in Arkansas, and THAT is how the authorities came to be involved. But since the abuse happened in 2002, there was nothing to do be done because the statute of limitations had expired.
Also, Oprah cancelled their appearance, so the taped show that they did never aired.
Thank you Sarah.
So we don’t know for sure, do we?
“Someone” told a reporter at In Touch that something happened, because In Touch filed a FIOA request and got a copy of the police report. That much looks to be true. It would be interesting to know who this was. Was it someone within the Duggar’s worshiping circle?
And there is a timeline at a USA Today article.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2015/05/28/timeline-josh-duggar-19-kids-and-counting-tlc-sex-abuse-scandal/28066229/
That timeline states that the Arkansas CPS received an “anonymous tip.” Then it goes onto say that the family was in Chicago for an interview with the Oprah show.
As far as I’ve read, Oprah never publicly talked about it. The Oprah Show quietly faxed the tip letter to the authorities and declined to air the Duggar interview. Probably the right thing to do.
The details about the letter and the Oprah story was obtained by InTouch through a Freedom of Information Act. NOT illegally, as the Duggar parents claimed in their recent interview.
As for who faxed the letter to the Oprah show? Who knows? I’d say its best for that person’s safety if no one finds out. But it would have to be someone who knew the Duggars and their church personally.
http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/bombshell-duggar-police-report-jim-bob-duggar-didn-t-report-son-josh-s-alleged-sex-offenses-for-more-than-a-year-58906
You can read the redacted police report in the link above. It has the letter sent to the Oprah Show in it.
Thanks for that Sarah. I’ve only read after articles, and not the original reporting. I’d like to see the supporting documents.
Here is a timeline for the events that happened during 2002-2006.
http://www.etonline.com/news/165063_josh_duggar_molestation_allegations_a_timeline_of_events/
The letter was actually written by a male, put into a book and forgotten about. Years later, the book was loaned to someone who read the letter and faxed it to the authorities. Also, right before the Duggar’s were to record a show, Oprah received an email from a 61 year old woman telling them some of the true history of the Duggar family.
A male person wrote a letter about the Duggars and put it in a book. Years later, that book was lent out with the forgotten letter and read by someone outside the family.
Later, when the Duggars were scheduled to tape a show for Oprah, someone (a female age 61) sent an email to the producers about the Duggars secrets (some of them) and that email was faxed to the authorities.
It is my belief that the book was lent by the younger male to the older female, who eventually wrote the Oprah show, but that is just a guess.
Here is the timeline:
http://www.etonline.com/news/165063_josh_duggar_molestation_allegations_a_timeline_of_events/
Hey Fidget — Can you contact me privately? I have something to share with you! Welcome back 🙂
Wow. I didn’t know that. That’s fascinating. I know their story is anything but true, but what you say makes sense.
The information coming to light now has been circulating the internet for years, with some of the exact circumstances mentioned that have suddenly caught the attention of mainstream media.
After reading this again, I’m confused now. How did it become public – so that you’re telling us about it – that Oprah declined to air the show, or that the letter was forwarded to CPS? Did she talk about it at some point?
Nevermind Sarah. I did some searching online. Apparently, the info came out through a FOIA request. Someone, an insider who knew about this, must have spoken to a reporter.
Seems unfair to be demonised for stuff he did as a kid, having been raised in a dodgy environment.
No this isn’t “stuff”. This isn’t cheating on a test or driving without a license or damaging property. This is sexually assaulting a child. Let’s call it what it is – sexual assault of prepubescent girls. If you think it is ok for a 15 year old to sexually assault prepubescent children, I am concerned for you.
He was a child too, and obviously their parents are messed up. Cruel to focus on that. If he was still doing it, it would be a problem.
Crimes from childhood should be kept secret if they were reported and dealt with when you were a minor. When you don’t actually report the crime until you’re a legal adult – and that is the case here – the report is no longer secret.
If Josh’s parents are so screwed up that it negates Josh’s responsibility, every single child should be removed from their care. They have, what? At least 8 or 9 minor children at home. And just molesting a few girls a few times is a big deal. And it’s terrifying that you are defending a child molester.
I’m not defending a child molester, I’m defending a child. The parents sound really dodgy, they should be investigated.
I agree with you. He offended more than a decade ago. He was still a minor and apparently has not done this since. We can absolutely and unequivocally condemn the *act* while offering compassion to a young man living in a highly unnatural situation.
I somewhat agree. Josh’s behavior was abnormal and definitely wrong. But the environment he was raised in definitely contributed to what he did. What we really need to be focusing on is Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. Those two are the real criminals here.
Daddy Duggar has ALWAYS given me the creeps and the wife is just as bad. I say he’s a perv and she is so submissive she believes anything he says and does
There is a difference in having some incidents happen with your child and living a secret life doing the same thing you are coming out against. Every family has some wrongs that they don’t want exposed to the whole world, especially, when it involves one of your children. Does that mean no one should ever speak out against what they see as wrong?
Every child matures at a different level and, if anything, the Duggars may have been too strict. This could have been part of the problem with Josh. Rebellion against parents, who are too strict causes a lot of problems.
People don’t know what they would do until something like this happens with their children. When our children are teen=agers, we are holding our breaths that they don’t do something stupid in their immaturity that will affect them for the rest of their lives. The parents are torn and walking a fine line. They are trying to say their child did something wrong and, yet, saying he has overcome his problems and has become a good responsible person. I don’t know if Josh has overcome his problems, or not, but I can identify with the parents wish to think the best for their child. I think it is too harsh to call someone who does something wrong at 15 a pedophile for life. Fifteen is still very young.
I think the thing that bothers me the most is how the sisters are expected to just forgive and move on. They, probably, love their brother, but this will stay with them for the rest of their lives. The sisters didn’t deserve to be exposed in this way, and that saddens me.
I don’t follow this show, and I find it a little troubling that people would just keep having so many children. I don’t think that any of the children could have very much of their parent’s attention when there are so many. I don’t judge the parents for this, but that is why I don’t follow this show.
You should know what you would do if your child assaulted – specifically sexually assaulted someone. And what you should do is turn them into the police. It is never ok to protect an abuser. It is disgusting to protect an abuser at the expense of another child. Fifteen is not too young to know that fondling prepubescent girls is wrong.
I really don’t see this family as minimizing what Josh did. They seem shocked and saddened by what he did. They want to hope that he has overcome his problems, and I think that is natural for a parent. Whether he has or hasn’t, I can’t blame the parents for their child’s mistakes. If more real evidence comes to light that shows a pattern of abuse in this family, I might take a harder stand against them. If parents are raising 19 children, and one acts out, I can’t say they are bad parents. I think, from what they are saying, they got additional mental help for Josh and their daughters. Taking him into the police station and making him accountable for his actions and making him leave the home was all they could do. Who would have perfect wisdom in how to handle such a thing? Sometimes, you just do the best you can do. Their story doesn’t seem totally believable, and I hope that they aren’t setting a bad example of lying to cover up their family’s problems. That would be a very bad example for their children.
I’m sorry. Usually I agree with you Karon. I believe they have minimized it. Jim Bob’s statement, something to the effect of, It wasn’t like it was rape or anything. The words ‘bad choices.’ It was a crime. They effectively covered it up well enough that the statute of limitations had passed.
Karon, if you have time, please point me to the law in Arkansas that states an individual has to be 16 and victim 5 years younger. That’s not the definition of a pedophile that former FBI profiler Roy Hazelwood writes about. And a pedophile is not the same thing as a child molester. They are two completely different things.
I haven’t followed this story, so if I’m incorrect, I hope someone will correct me, but from what I remember reading someone posting on my Facebook from another article that looked at the timeline, the youngest girl would have been about 5 years old at the time this occurred. I think I read that the age range of the girls he touched was 5 – 12 years old.
That’s about 10-11 years age difference for the youngest girl, which I don’t think is really something someone ~15 years old would be doing if there weren’t something unusual going on in their head. Whether that’s treatable, I don’t know– I’ll have to defer to the experts there– I suspect it’s probably more biological or chemical in nature than behavioral, but from what I’ve read, there are at least 3-4 different types of offender with this sort of thing, and they are not really related at all other than the similar demographic of their victims.
I don’t know how many experts there really are about this sort of thing either– I know there are a lot of people with strong opinions, but how based in reality or science are those opinions? I mean pretty much everyone is attracted to some kind of person, but most people don’t rape anyone. And I like Ferraris, but when I see one, I don’t think about carjacking the owner.
I think at the very least, he will need some extensive therapy for whatever is going on in his head, but that history of violating someone else– particularly if it’s true they were asleep– certainly doesn’t bode well as to having a normal psychology. If they were awake, you could maybe chalk it up to kids being curious, but if he only did it to them while they were asleep, then that’s actually much worse if you ask me because it indicates that he knew what he was doing was wrong and he planned it out and did it anyway, with a deliberate intent to get away with it– it sets up a very bad precedent and to me suggests the possibility of future escalation. I don’t know if that can be stopped. I hope so, but I’m leery.
Keith, as usual, you hit the nail on the head. This was predatory behavior. This wasn’t curiosity between two age related children. And it was repeated even after the parents first found out about it and supposedly confronted him about it.
Even though the DSM states a child can’t be labeled with anti-social personality disorder (the closest thing in the DSM to Dr. Hare’s definition of a psychopath) … I believe “children” can be predators on other children.
But was Josh really a child or was he a young adult with way more responsibility than your average 14 year old? By a year and a half later, at 15 and a half, he is a young adult, and he still did it.
How much responsibility did Josh have in that family at the time this first occurred in 2002? He was the oldest of 14 siblings. Do you think he was an average 14 year old, or do you think because of how different this family was, and the number of siblings, he had more responsibility piled on him as that family grew exponentially?
Those are interesting questions to ask, Sprocket. I don’t know if we’ll ever know. This case isn’t one that I’ve been interested in reading much about for whatever reason. It’s just too off-putting to me because whenever I’ve seen the show advertised or seen them talk, it’s always repulsed me– I never put my finger on quite what it was because it repulsed me that much. I had less than zero interest in it and knowing what few details I do about the case only confirms to me that I still don’t want anything to do with it.
I feel for the terrible predicament that it must be to have one of your children do something like this, and I definitely feel for the victims, but that’s about the limit for me on this one. It’s not one I can delve into the way I normally would.
YES! That’s it, you got it. Children can be predators on other children. I have worked with the victims of those child on child predators, and you would be shocked at how young and manipulative the predators are. The “lucky” victims have a caregiver that let me work with them for about 2 years. The others I never saw again after the mandatory court appt’s.
I agree that I am leery of Josh. If I had a daughter, I would be very cautious about her being around him. Whether he has the ability to change is still undecided, so I am cautious. I do think people overcome a lot of teen behaviors, so I have to leave that to undecided. The girls in this situation concerns me most. Life is hard enough without facing being molested, being put out there for the whole world to see, and to have their family condemned. Right now, they are more concerned about the negative publicity, but later on in their mid-twenties, the full emotional impact of the molestation may hit them. I am very concerned about them.
No matter what a child does, his parents are going to still love him. If your child goes to jail, you don’t approve of what they did, but you try to support them. You don’t want them totally crushed. It is just the way most parents are, and that is why I can’t be so very harsh on the parents.
I’ve always respected you, Karon, and I still do. I’m fine with not always agreeing with you. I understand where you’re coming from and I respect that too. Your heart is in the right place, and in some ways, I feel the same way you do.
I also agree with one of your other comments that no one really knows what they would do in a situation like this until it happens to them. Extreme events like this can reveal an awful lot of blind spots to a person that they didn’t know they had. That has to be incredibly tough for pretty much anyone. I feel for any parent who finds themselves in a similar situation. Anyone would need help with something like this, and I don’t think the Duggars are getting that help– I think they’re getting mostly enabling, and that won’t do anyone any good.
Excellent point. Doing while asleep to me also means he hoped to get away with it.
What I do know is that statistically, if he has urged to touch young children, that doesn’t ever end.
Child molestors admit this themselves. They can’t control it and they don’t get over it. They usually just get smarter in how they attempt to get away with it.
I babysat tons of kids in my apartments starting at age 11 that were anywhere from newborn to 9 yrs of age. I didn’t touch their private places. I was curious as all kids are but I was curious about kids my age.
I knew it would be wrong. So at 15 I do not accept him just being curious.
What he did was not normal.
I think the parents should just keep quiet, make a comment about the sadness and seriousness of the issue and leave it at that. People are people and their 19 children are just that, “people” and people are capable of doing pretty rotten things. It’s best to just acknowledge it and move on. Anything they do say will just give more ammunition to the frothing hypocritical public who just loves to find something to hate about them because they’re a decent conservative family trying to raise their children according to their best understanding of Biblical standards. If one of their children didn’t try to explore sexually in an inappropriate manner I should have been surprised, because with 21 sinners in a single house the odds just aren’t in their favour.
This is the argument that sets my teeth on edge. ¨They’re a decent conservative family.¨ NO, they AREN’T. They’re a cult. http://jezebel.com/5939635/the-duggars-are-an-evil-cult
Jezebel has a pretty interesting set of guidlines for determining a cult, pretty much anything that doesn’t fit with their very liberal values (or lack thereof).
Did you read the article or just pre-judge it because of your opinions about Jezebel? The guidelines for determining a cult don’t come from Jezebel’s writers, as the article clearly states. They come from psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton and specifically his book about mind control titled Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism. Lifton is a lecturer at Harvard Medical School. The writer at Jezebel was doing what good writers do: citing experts.
I read enough
Though I will give you… if they are holding to the teachings of Bill Gothard, I do think he (Gothard) is a little over the top. He’s not of the “drink the Koolaide” variety but he does make laws or rules where God himself made no laws and that is usurping God’s territory. I wouldn’t want to have to answer for that.
Do you think that when we apply the situation Josh was raised in, compared to what is considered a normal environment, perhaps there would have been only experimenting with his peer group? Not to blame others for someone’s choices, but I do wonder if isolation & environment didn’t contribute.
Eeek, so preying on his peers sexually would have been better? I think that his environment should have given him a better than average chance of behaving himself sexually. With the exception of the fact that with so many children it can be more difficult to keep track of where each one.
It isn’t “preying” among peers. It’s normal for children of the same age to check each other out. It’s when one is older and knows more than the little ones know and takes advantage of their ignorance (and has a pattern of doing so and hiding it) that it’s preying.
Lol! 🙂 I didn’t mean he should have been allowed to run loose as a sexual maniac! More nature v nurture. Perhaps they told him his natural curiosity was sinful? But that wouldn’t stop the curiosity. His environment was restrictive. so I wonder if he had been in maybe a public school & had friendships outside of family, if any abuse would have occurred? But many others are of the opinion he is just a sexual deviant n that they are just predators and never change.
He’s also been forced to step down over allegations of his own misconduct by dozens of women.
Bill Gothard has been asked to step down? Where did you here that?
Which time? He stepped down for a short time in the 89s and then again, I believe in the fall? Both times for inappropriate touching of young women- this time there were 34 young women who accused him.
Wow, that might explain why he insists upon such seemingly prudish dating practises. Because he knows the power of temptation. So, sad.
I am not trying to say that they aren’t minimizing what Josh did, but I do have mercy on the parents. I do think the parents are shocked and saddened by what their son did. and I think any parent would still have hope for their child. I said in my first comment on this that I thought they weren’t being completely truthful. I don’t know about the laws in Arkansas, but when I look up pedophile, I see that Josh was a little under the age usually considered to be a pedophile. I do think a person in their teens can change with the right help.
It is O.K. if we disagree on a subject, and I know my comments on this aren’t going to be popular. I just don’t think a teen is set in an untreatable pattern.
I think that I read people and situations pretty well, but you will find that I am very mercy oriented, also. If Josh messes up at his age, now, I wouldn’t be for mercy, at all. I am not sure the parents swept this under the rug, since they took him to the police and made him confess. I can see why they didn’t keep bringing this up after Josh got help. They would want him to have a chance to have a fresh start. I would like to know more about the therapy that he received, and that might help me to better judge how seriously the parents took his problems. I know a lot of things are being said, but I am not sure that everything that is being said is true.
They did not take him to the police until they were forced to by the Oprah show. You don’t have the facts straight. I’ve read the redacted police reports. I recommend reading them in order to have the facts.
Official definition of pedophile
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia
Pedophilia is termed pedophilic disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), and the manual defines it as a paraphilia in which adults or adolescents 16 years of age or older have intense and recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about prepubescent children that they have either acted on or which cause them distress or interpersonal difficulty.
The laws are seperate. Dad only compared Josh to the definition of a pedophile.
For those that say he was a just a child.
At age 15 did you touch younger children with out their permission? And pretty sure if he had done it at lets say a public school he would have been expelled.
We need to put this in perspective.
A 15 year old is able to start driving
They go to school and are expected to follow school rules
They know the basic rules and laws
And if true, Josh said he knew it was wrong. But instead of stopping, he continued
At 15 I was not touching others private parts with out consent.
New report out today about inconsistencies in the Duggar’s statements.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/duggar-fox-interview-inconsistencies
Everyone keeps saying the parents protected an abuser, and I cannot agree about that. If everything happened the way they say it happened, they took steps to make Josh responsible for his actions. I am waiting to see if they really took those steps, however. I don’t know what they could have done more. The whole family was investigated more than once. The parents always hold out hope for their child. I am sure they are very hurt over what has happened to their daughters. You can’t just kill a teen who does something wrong. Not everyone has molested, but it is a lot more common than we would think. That doesn’t make it right, but there are so many people out there with this history leading decent lives. The verdict isn’t in as far as I am concerned. I will have to know more, before I comment further.
1. They did not cooperate with investigators – they got a lawyer and refused to allow Josh to be interviewed.
2. “By not reporting the at-least SEVEN instances of abuse on at least THREE
occasions during a period of more than a year, they could have faced
felony charges for child endangerment, with a six-year prison term.” (InTouch)
3. Significant claims they made are inconsistent with earlier statements (such as saying now that the girls weren’t aware).
4. The trooper they went to initially was a well-known acquaintance, and they told him it only happened once (a lie).
They are whitewashing the whole thing – in fact protecting him. As for “You can’t just kill a teen” – who has said anything like that is called for? There’s a huge difference between saying there should be accountability and “killing” a teen. If a 12-year-old is old enough to babysit, a 14-year-old is old enough not to prey on a sleeping sibling. And the parents should be responsible enough at the very least to get counseling for all the kids (predator and victims) from trained therapists – something that was not done.
Karon, your right that we should see this in a better light from a parenting standpoint. They did something about it. They tried to help all their children involved the best way they knew how and that shows love. So many parents do nothing, and your also right that it’s more common than alot of people know. We know it was talked about and he was punished in some way, and that will help those girls. It’s better than some get. As always, thank you for your comments. I enjoy your point of view!
Thank you, Remi. I always enjoy your comments, as well. This is a tough and hurtful situation for all involved. Now, for those girls to be exposed before the whole world is just too much for anyone to cope with. It is a sad story but, hopefully, they will be O.K.
If you are right in your comment about them lying to the police from the start, I would have a harder outlook on this whole tragic case. Where did the information come from? My whole point has been that teenagers make mistakes and overcome them, not that he should just get by with it. I am always hesitant to blame the parents when someone does something wrong, but if they lied, they didn’t set the right example before their children and the rest of the world.
Where did the information come from? One of the victims wrote what happened to her in a letter and put that letter in a book. The book was loaned out to someone outside the family and that person read it. That person then contacted the Oprah show because the Duggars were scheduled to appear. Oprah’s producer contacted Child and Family Services. It’s all in the police reports. The ¨friend¨ who was a police officer (highway patrol, not even an investigator) was told it happened once. Police are mandated reporters. He should have reported the family to DCFS immediately.
If anyone is interested Dr. Lillian Glass( body language expert) wrote a very detailed piece on the entire Fox news interview. It was the best thing I read on this subject. It is on her blog.
Dr. Lillian Glass(Body Language Expert) wrote a very detailed piece about the Fox interview on her blog. It is the best thing I have read on this matter.
Thank you, Keith, I have always respected you, too. There are some things that I am curious about with this story. I saw the police reports on Josh, so I don’t understand how the parents didn’t tell the police what he had done. Someone in that family had to have come clean with the police for the police to know about the names and dates of the different molestations. I doubt Josh or the girls kept up with the names and dates. I am not saying the parents did all that they could do, because I don’t know that. I do think it took some determination to take Josh to the Police Station and make him tell what he did. Most parents wouldn’t have done that. Even, if it were to a friend of the family, he still had a record and the other police had to know about it. I don’t watch their show, because I don’t think having so many children makes sense. I am hesitant to blame the parents, automatically, when a child does wrong. This whole story is heart-breaking, and it makes me feel sick. I am more into detecting deception and not deciding all of the moral issues surrounding the case. It seems different therapists have differing opinions on the chances of juveniles re-offending
Again, this all came to light after Oprah’s producer contacted authorities. THEN the police interviewed the victims and the parents and that is where the police reports originated. These reports were NOT generated from the original crime, nor from Josh’s parents doing the right thing by their daughters.
It is so wrong to be jumping to conclusions and saying the parents are perverts. We should have some proof, before we say such awful things. I have seen one child in a family be a big problem, and the other children good children. We don’t always know why this happens.
Please do not advertise other websites here. That is against policy. Thank you.
I was just mentioning a good article on this subject. It seems people have posted links to other websites in their comments and that is not against policy?
Links to websites are okay, but I do not promote other people in a similar or related field as a general rule. It’s policy. Thanks!
Sorry, I did not know!
Jane Doe, since you addressed your comment to me, i will answer. Of course, Josh knew what he was doing was wrong. I won’t be commenting further on this case, because it really troubles me. I don’t like to get into all of the rights and wrongs of situations, and I prefer to stick, mostly, to deception detection. That is what this blog is really about.
I actually do believe Josh confessed. They are taught that kind of thing from birth, have it literally beaten into them (the Duggar’s are followers of the Pearls) to confess their sins to their parents immediately. And of course he knew it was wrong, they are also taught purity culture crap from a very young age. His parents are the complete screw-ups in this mess. They raised those kids in that complete bizarre cult and then they didn’t get their son the help he clearly needed and was obviously desperately trying to get.
According to the report, one of the girls told the parents what happened, and they then questioned Josh, who admitted it. He didn’t confess voluntarily. And then after this questioning and admitting of molestation, he continued to do it some more. There was a year between the first time the parents heard that this was happening and the last time it happened. When they discovered it was still going on, this is when they sent Josh to a family friend to do labor and construction and get Josh out of the house. In the police report, the parents admit Josh did not get counseling. They just sent him to this family friend. It’s in their own words in the report: “was this friend of the family a counselor?” The mother: “No.” The police: “So he did not get counseling?” The mother: “Not that kind, no” — Now they are casting the friend with the construction business and Josh’s month working for him as a sort of “christian counseling”.
The second police report makes it very clear it was Josh who confessed. It’s hard to tell from the first report with all the redactions , but even that can be read as being Josh, and was by many people. The second report only confirms that reading.
I’m well aware of the family’s complete failure to get him appropriate help.Guaranteed they also beat him every time he confessed, since they are followers of the child abusing Pearl’s. Disturbingly, other forms of abuse in the home increases the risk for sexual abuse in the home. The majority (or perhaps all) of their fellow Gothard followers also follow the Pearls. There is a lot of physical abuse of children going on in this cult, in addition to brainwashing and sexual abuse is apparently rampant.
I feel compassion for this family, for whatever reason. Guess they are under public scrutiny by their own doing, but it must be really difficult to be under public scrutiny.
I think people don’t realize what a cult that Josh was raised in. Here are two links. The first shows how a boy (who later broke out of this cult that uses the same curriculum and philosophy as the Duggers) confessed each time to his parents that he masturbated, etc.and was so under their control. The second if from a girl’s point of view who was raised in this same cult. Until you understand the environment these kids came from, I think it is difficult to understand their actions and whether they are lying.
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/09/a-different-kind-of-sexual-abuse/
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/01/the-thing-about-purity/
This does not excuse Josh being a child molester. It just gives a point of reference.
No disrespect to you Cricket, but I’m leery of websites where the information is not fact checked. In addition, there are no names that can be researched that are associated with this website.
In the FAQ page it states this:
“The Recovering Grace Leadership team consists of nearly two dozen
pastors, lawyers, teachers, professors, accountants, office managers,
business leaders, and stay-at-home parents.”
But not one of these individuals is named.
All of these stories could be 100% true, but we would have no way of knowing that.
This story is a little on the old side now, but just adding to this portion of the conversation– here’s an article that does discuss a bit of what the recoveringgrace website is and who’s involved as well as who some of the people are in order to help establish credibility and evaluating the truthfulness of it. (I haven’t read any of it myself, but when I read this link just now, I remembered these comments talking about it and not knowing who was behind it etc.).
http://www.worldmag.com/2015/06/bill_gothard_defends_himself_on_new_website
I have such mixed feelings about this.
1. I believe it is possible to judge the act and the person committing the act separately.
a. The acts were reprehensible.
Sorry, messed up the post and can’t edit it well.
It seems to me that this crime was made public, or at least publicized as much as it has been, by people who (correctly in my view) disagreed with the Duggar stance on gay marriage and transexuals. (Apart from the FOIA request, many of the earliest stories about this explicitly mention Duggar politics.) They wanted to bring the Duggars down a peg. To do so, they revealed an episode that was more than a decade old, one committed when Josh was a minor, and that was not repeated after the age of fifteen.. In doing so, they publicly humiliated his innocent victims.
Think of how difficult it was for the married girls to have this revealed to their husbands–I’m betting they didn’t share this before marriage. This will impact the younger girls when they begin courting. Think of how embarrassed and humiliated those girls are in front of the *whole entire world* which now knows that they were incest victims.
While I do believe in gay marriage and advocate acceptance of transexuals, I think the method used by some members of these communities to strike back at the Duggars was simply cruel. They were no better than the Duggars themselves.
I don’t believe that’s correct at all. IMHO, this is speculation on your part. I highly recommend you read the police report. The complete report is imbedded in the IN TOUCH article.
I have read the police report. I am not disputing the severity of the crimes and the harm to the victims. What I think is very wrong is releasing this report in a way that makes the victims identifiable. This was cruel and wrong. The kind of people who would inflict this kind of public exposure and pain on *victims* are cruel and they probably have a political agenda. Perish the thought, but if you had been victimized as a pre-teen, would you want that information known all around the world?
I don’t know what report you read, but the victims were not identified in the report.
Blame the parents for most likely, pressuring the two girls to go on national television.
The victims weren’t named explicitly but enough information was provided to make it easy to understand who the victims were–that they were his sisters.
So, in your mind, the police should have redacted the report more, to hide the fact that the victims were his sisters? That the police had a duty to go beyond the letter of the law, to protect them?
Why not? It’s the victimizer’s shame, not mine. Secrecy makes this kind of crime possible.
But did they do this BECAUSE they disagreed with the Duggars or is that a separate thing and they did it because they wanted to expose the hypocrisy of the very high profile public image carrying the Duggars’ messages? What I mean is that it could just as easily have been publicized by people who had mustaches, or blond hair, or who like to wear brightly colored clothing. I have a hard time seeing those two things as the same thing because I don’t see people promoting gay marriage etc. attacking EVERY religious person (many of them are even their allies), only those whose behaviors are at odds with their words– and since these are people who claim to be religious (Christians in most cases), and because the religious doctrines they claim to adhere to are abundantly clear that hypocrisy is not acceptable and is a sin, it seems logical that when that rears its ugly head that the hypocrites would be attacked for it. Jesus himself attacked hypocrites pretty vehemently in the Bible, and since Christianity is a religion built on his namesake, it stands to reason that exposing hypocrisy and hypocrites isn’t a bad thing even on Christianity’s own foundation.
You are absolutely right about the victims though– that’s very unfortunate. I kind of hope the Duggar parents are at least deeply questioning their judgment in choosing to live their and their children’s lives as a TV show right now, because they certainly should be. Were it not for their choosing to do that, it’s likely 99.9999% of us wouldn’t have any clue who any of them were, nor would anyone care about using the public information to figure out who the victims might have been, so while it is abominable for the public or the media in particular to do so– it’s damage that was actually caused by Josh’s actions and his parents’ decisions, which will also make recovery that much more difficult for the victims. None of this was their fault– not any of it, which includes having lived their lives in public as a TV show.
Maybe it’s time for we the public to reconsider our support of such reality shows, because our appetite for them is also a contributive factor here for these child victims– the law of unintended consequences and all that. It’s a sad and terrible case all around, but mostly I’ve seen people commenting on the story being very supportive of the victims. And maybe this can be used as a way to educate the public about EFFECTIVE ways to support victims of sexual abuse, because a lot of what people do, while well-meaning, is actually really terrible in itself– sometimes even worse than the abusive act.
I think in their mind, “no victim, no crime.” I’m sure the story that’s been the family’s party line all along to police and media was made up entirely by Jim Bob and Michelle. Reading the police reports, the statements all say the same thing. I don’t know why they would think that a victim who didn’t know they were abused makes the crime less severe. I think it has to do with their view on women as secondary to men and full-time incubators. They’re not quite people so their experiences don’t matter. In my mind, it’s even more reprehensible to victimize someone without their awareness. That means the most vulnerable and dependent are at greatest risk from the offender. All of this is foul. The shame of it is those kids have been indoctrinated and isolated so strongly that they have barely a chance of breaking out of this cult, let alone getting real help from qualified professionals.
Eyes, I typically agree with you, but in this case I have one disagreement or perhaps better put – something to add.
You state that you don’t believe that Josh came to his parent’s to admit guilt. If any other parent of a teen /
young person told me this I would not believe them either, but in this case I do. I was once a part of this same sub-culture of very fundamental Christianity that the Duggar’s practice. I can attest to the fact that a great deal of guilt is placed upon individuals who do anything that they have even heard might be wrong or borders on wrong (or hinted at in hushed tones). The suggested remedy (preached from the pulpit in churches, in seminars conducted by individuals the Duggars hold in high regard, and handed out in instructions given from parents) is to confess your “sins” and wrongdoings to those who have authority over you. In this case, if Josh felt a twinge of guilt all of his teachings would have told him that he could eliminate this feeling by confessing to his parents. I think this is a case where the teachings of the cult override the “normal” behavior of the rest of society.
That said, I put very little credibility in much of what the Duggars are saying. They are hiding information, perhaps in an effort to present a “good Christian face.” There is a great deal wrong with the way this is being handled, but this is largely due to the fact that they are following the beliefs that they promote and adhere to so devoutly. The fact that it is unhealthy or wrong is beyond their concept. This does not serve as an excuse in my opinion, but does help me understand more behind their actions.
Reading the police report makes it clear that one of the girls told first.
Interesting point Jane. What you say, to me, in the distorted morality system of such a sub-culture could of happened. Of course the help from such a sub-culture would be expected to be ineffective at best and dangerous at the other extreme.
I’m so sorry for what you went through. I can’t even begin to imagine how hard those experiences have been for you to go through and survive. That said though, thank you for your comment. I agree with most if not all of it.
Keith!! 🙂 if I didn’t love your comments so much, I wouldn’t have went back to this story and saw ” STOP ABUSE’S ” comment, and that would have been a shame. Thanks for all the time u take with your comments! I really appreciate your insights.
You’re welcome. And thank you!
I don’t think it’s just their church– in my experience, a lot of churches make the same or similar mistakes. The way religions are operated in many cases is like chumming the water in that it brings the predators out in droves. There’s almost like a kind of collective naivety or willful (and unwarranted) innocence/ignorance which creates a victim-rich environment, and predators everywhere know this and capitalize on it. I think it’s really sick and sad, but even more so that so few people seem interested in doing anything to address it given how obvious the problem seems to be.
Thank you so very much for taking the time to make your comment. I read it twice. Please keep telling your story, u never know who’s life it might change! 🙂
I do think it is plausible he confessed to his parents. He was raised in a Christian home. The Bible has lots to say on confession. When in Church you hear how you must confess your sins to be saved. He may have feared for his salvation.
I don’t know how they can stand there on national television and put on this pretense of a loving caring family, all while she’s barely hiding this gigantic bruise on the side of her face. No wonder their kid is screwed up. He’s confusing loving kindness with selfish hurt because his parents engage in violence instead of affection.